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对话张永和:建筑是以人为本的艺术第1张图片

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“我没能成为一名艺术家,但我成为了一名艺术建筑师”:非常建筑工作室张永和访谈录
"I Failed to be an Artist but I Became an Artistic Architect": Interview with Yung Ho Chang of Atelier FCJZ

由专筑网邢子,李韧编译

北京建筑师张永和和他的妻子鲁力佳于1993年创办了“非常建筑”工作室(Atelier FCJZ)。“非常建筑”的字面含义是“不平凡的建筑”,就是这一象征性的名称成为中国第一个独立的建筑事务所,并奠定了当代中国建筑实践的基础。张永和被称为中国现代主义建筑之父,他成长于著名的建筑师家庭。张永和的父亲张开济是一位古典主义者,他曾经是北京建筑设计院的首席建筑师之一,也是天安门广场上中国国家博物馆的建筑师。张永和在南京学习建筑,之后在印第安那市曼西的鲍尔州立大学获得了学士学位,在加州大学伯克利分校获得了建筑学硕士学位。他曾在中国和美国任教,包括哈佛大学设计学院,并于2005年至2010年担任麻省理工学院建筑系主任。2012年,也是他加入普利兹克奖评审团的那一年,他的伙伴王澍成为首位获得该奖项的中国建筑师。以下是张永和在北京工作室的谈话摘录。

Beijing architect Yung Ho Chang together with his wife Lijia Lu started his practice in 1993 under the name Feichang Jianzhu, atelier FCJZ. It literary means “not ordinary architecture,” a symbolic name for the practice that became China’s first independent architectural office, laying the foundation of contemporary practice in the country. Chang is referred to as the father of contemporary Chinese architecture. He grew up in the prominent architect’s family. Chang’s father, Zhang Kaiji [Yung Ho Chang’s Chinese name is Zhang Yonghe] was a classicist. He was one of the chief architects of the Beijing Architectural Design Institute and the design architect in charge for what is today the National Museum of China on Tiananmen Square. Chang studied architecture in Nanjing, then received his Bachelor degree from Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana, and Master of Architecture from the University of California at Berkeley. He has taught in both China and America, including at Harvard’s GSD and headed MIT’s architecture department from 2005 to 2010. In 2012, the year he joined the Pritzker Prize Jury, his fellow countryman Wang Shu became the first Chinese architect who won the Prize. The following is an excerpt from my conversation with Yung Ho Chang at his Beijing office.

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© TIAN Fangfang

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Model ©Atelier FCJZ


VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY(下文为VB):让我先引用你的话,“我相信建筑是贴近现实的东西,最终与人们的生活方式息息相关。”但我想你那样说是开玩笑,因为在我看来,你的建筑没有那么朴实。现实是我们往往不会注意到的事情,不是吗?

张永和:好吧,也许在中文翻译中漏掉了一些东西。我的意思是建筑是有形的。建筑关于物质世界。建筑对我来说就是享受生活。它很大程度上与我们的生活方式有关。对我们来说,建筑不仅仅是建筑。我们还设计家具、工业产品、服装、珠宝等等。例如,几年前我还受邀去设计一个蛋糕,因为建筑师喜欢解决各种各样的问题。传统的千层糕往往会因为酥皮层之间的奶油的水分而变软,而我们通过分离糕点和奶油解决了这个问题,奶油放在中间的巧克力盒里,这样你就可以把糕点蘸到奶油里了。这就是我所说的有形设计。我不喜欢读有关建筑的哲学书籍。这对我来说太抽象了。我并不是想设计全部东西。我享受生活,它不时给我很多设计的乐趣,不仅仅关于建筑。不过,我主要关注的还是建筑方面。

Vladimir Belogolovsky: Let me start with your quote, “I believe architecture is something more down to earth, and ultimately relates to how people live.” Tell me you were kidding when you said that because it seems to me that your architecture is anything but down to earth. Down to earth is something that we tend not to notice, right?
Yung Ho Chang Well, maybe something was lost in translation from Chinese. [Laughs.] What I meant is that architecture is tangible. It's about our physical world. Architecture for me is about enjoying life. It is very much about the way we live. And for us architecture is so much more than just buildings. You know, we design furniture, industrial products, clothing, jewelry, and so on. For example, a couple of years ago, since architects like to solve all kinds of problems, I was asked to design a cake. There was a problem – traditional Mille-Feuille tends to get softened by the moisture of the cream between puff pastry layers. We solved it by separating the pastry and the cream, which was placed in a chocolate box in the center, so you can dip the pastry into the cream as you like. This is what I mean by tangible design. I don’t enjoy reading philosophical books on architecture. It is too abstract for me. And I am not trying to expand on designing everything. I enjoy life and from time to time it gives me a lot of pleasure to design not just buildings. Still, it is buildings that I focus on primarily.

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© TIAN Fangfang


VB:你还说过,“我不认为建筑师可以在任何地方去建造建筑,而是需要把自己固定在一个地方。建筑师应该坐在工作室里,与各种材料和他的团队一起工作。”你自己就是这样做的吗?

张永和:嗯,我经常飞来飞去,这一点你说得对,但并不都是这样。我不断飞去建筑场地或者参加客户会议。我的意思是,如果你想要在建筑中挖掘一些东西,并推动理论发展,那么确实需要在日常实践中花费时间。你需要学习如何把不同的建筑组合在一起。好建筑就是好的组合,也许我越来越保守了。当然,你也需要保持好奇心和开放性,但在某种程度上,你需要把注意力集中在作品上。你必须培养出那些我称为“自主建筑”的东西。当然,作为一名建筑师,你也需要客户,需要融入社会,需要遵循某些关于结构、气候、材料等方面的惯例。但作为一名创作者,你也应该努力培养自己的敏感性。

VB: You also said, “I don’t think architects can just fly around and build structures anywhere, but rather they need to anchor themselves in one place. Architects should sit in their studios and work with materials and their teams.” Is that what you do yourself?
YHC: Well, I used to fly around, you are right; but not nearly as much. I continue to fly to visit construction sites and for client meetings. What I meant was that if you have the ambition to discover something in architecture and push the discipline you really need to spend time at your practice on daily basis. You need to learn how to put buildings together. Good buildings are the ones that are put together well. Maybe I am getting more conservative. [Laughs.] Of course, you need to be curious and open, but at some point you need to anchor yourself and focus on work. You must develop what I would call an autonomous architecture. Of course, as an architect, you need a client, you need to be engaged with society, you need to follow certain conventions about structure, climate, materials, etc. But you should also try to develop your own sensibilities as an author.

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© SHU He

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© SHU He


VB:说到所谓的“自主建筑”,你能不能结合2013年在上海建造的垂直玻璃房子来细说一下?该项目在场所上建立了很强的自主权。这是一个关于“看”和“被看”的有趣游戏,也体现了不想因功能简化建筑的想法。这不是一个很好的例子吗?这是一个相当大的创新,它甚至可以可以称作是“空间上的故事”。你和你的家人在那里呆了一小段时间,对吗?你喜欢住在房子里还是设计它?

张永和:你说得对,从某种意义上说,这是一项创新。是的,我非常喜欢住在那里。现在我想除了其他的参考资料,我一定是受到了约翰·海杜克(John Hejduk)项目的影响,就是那个拒绝参与的居民住宅。我真想住在海杜克的那幢理论上的房子里。我设计垂直玻璃房子的意图之一就是想独自体验空间。这来自于一个建筑命题,显然玻璃房子在过去都是许多建筑师的关注点,如密斯·凡·德·罗(Mies van der Rohe)和菲利普·约翰逊(Philip Johnson)。所以我把他们设计的玻璃房子旋转了90度,比如密斯的范斯沃斯住宅或者约翰逊的玻璃房子。我改变了材料,用玻璃替代坚固的屋顶和地板,而完全透明的墙壁被几乎没有窗户的混凝土墙取代。

VB: Speaking of what you called autonomous architecture, can you expand on that by perhaps referring to your Vertical Glass House that you built in Shanghai in 2013? This project has established a strong autonomy from its place. It is a fascinating play on seeing and being seen, as well as your refusal to reduce architecture to its function. Isn’t it a good example that your architecture is anything but down to earth? It is quite an invention, it may even be called a novel that can be read spatially. You stayed there with your own family for a short while, right? Did you enjoy living in the house as much as designing it?
YHC: You are right, it is an invention, in a certain way. Yes, I enjoyed living there very much. [Laughs.] Now that I think about it, among other references, I must have been influenced by John Hejduk’s project, The House of the Inhabitant who Refused to Participate. I do have a desire to stay in that theoretical house by Hejduk. And one of my intentions in the Vertical Glass House was the desire to experience space alone. It came from an architectural proposition, the glass house, which, of course, preoccupied many architects in the past, such as Mies van der Rohe and Philip Johnson. So I took their glass house, whether Mies’s Farnsworth House or Johnson’s Glass House and literally turned it 90 degrees. I flipped the material – solid roof and floor were replaced by glass, while entirely transparent walls were replaced by almost windowless concrete walls.

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© TIAN Fangfang

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© TIAN Fangfang


VB:早在1991年,这所房子还是一个纸上项目的时候,就赢得了日本建筑杂志举办的年度新建筑住宅设计竞赛。该项目就是这样一个理想和理论的愿景。那么,你为什么认为你的作品更加贴近现实?

张永和:因为这座房子有贴近现实的时候。让我告诉你,我真的很想体验在这所房子里的生活。但我想知道——还有谁想?

VB:还有谁想?

张永和:我想说的是,如今玻璃屋的概念已经不属于德国、美国、密斯或是约翰逊。它属于每一个人。刘伶是公元3世纪的中国诗人、学者,他是竹林七贤,道家享受和颂扬个人自由、自发性以及自然。据说他光着身子在家里走来走去。他对惊讶的访客解释说:“天空和大地是我的建筑,我的房子是我的衣服。”当我参与这个项目时,我认为他就是我的理想客户。房子的顶部有一个房间是完全空的。这是纯粹的空间。你坐在房间里,抬头会看到天空,而低头会透过地板一直看到地面。

VB: This house was originally designed as a paper project back in 1991, as an award-winning entry for the annual Shinkenchiku Residential Design Competition organized by the Japan Architecture magazine. This project is such an idealistic and theoretical vision. Why do you maintain that your work is down to earth?
YHC: Because this house has a down to earth moment. [Laughs.] Let me tell you. I really wanted to experience being in this house. But I also wondered – who else?

VB: Who else?
YHC: [Laughs.] May I suggest, today the notion of glass house doesn’t belong to Germany, the US, Mies, or Johnson. It belongs to everyone. Liu Ling was a Chinese poet and scholar in the 3rd century. He was one of the Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove, the Taoists who enjoyed and celebrated personal freedom, spontaneity, and nature. He was said to be walking around his home naked. He explained to surprised visitors, “The sky and earth are my architecture, my house is my clothing.” When I worked on this project I thought he would be my ideal client. The top of the house has a room that is meant to be completely empty. It is a pure space. You sit in the room. You look up and you see the sky. You look down and you see through the floors all the way to the earth.

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© TIAN Fangfang

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垂直玻璃屋,张永和/Vertical Glass House watercolor by Yung Ho Chang

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垂直玻璃屋,张永和/Vertical Glass House watercolor by Yung Ho Chang

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垂直玻璃屋,张永和/Vertical Glass House watercolor by Yung Ho Chang


VB:现在你把它描述的感觉就像一座中国房子,对吧?整座住宅是独立的庭院,与天空和大地有着非常密切的联系。它也代表了一种对平凡和务实的反抗。

张永和:也许吧。但我想把它看作是一座万能住宅。你知道吗,我认为建筑不应该分为东方和西方。我想把它根据气候分为南北两部分,而不是根据文化。我想说的是,我们做的所有项目都是为人而设计。

VB: Now that you describe it, it feels like a very Chinese house, right? The whole house is an autonomous courtyard with this very intimate connection to the sky and the earth. It also represents a kind of resistance against ordinary and pragmatic.
YHC: Maybe. But I want to think of it as a universal house. You know, I don’t think the world of architecture should be divided into east and west. I want to think of it as divided into north and south, climactically, not culturally. I would say that all projects we have done are really intended to be used by anyone.

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© TIAN Fangfang

VB:你能谈谈中国建筑的现状吗?一方面,有这么多充满精力的年轻实践者在做着优秀的作品,这是中国人对回顾历史并将当地的文化、历史以及传统材料融入作品展示出的出色的平衡性。另一方面,他们也在展望并吸收先进的技术。这一点在今年的威尼斯双年展上得到了非常清晰的体现,在中国馆展出了许多此类项目,主要是农村的小型项目。然而,我想知道这种方法是否缺乏多样性?许多项目看起来有些公式化,几乎就像一个实践项目的复制。你觉得呢?

张永和:我同意你的看法。是的,这里在很大程度上出现了一种创造力的复兴。到处都有很多非常好的建筑。然而,如果我可以参考自己的方法,我会敢于冒险。比起我在这里的很多同事,你是对的,我们开始共同做好工作。但是,在某种程度上,仅仅做好工作是不够的。如今,建筑师知道如何建造一座好建筑。但在对于我们的学科中较少探索的领域也很重要。走出自己的舒适区是当务之急。也许你会失败,也许你做不出很好的东西,但我们仍然应该挑战自我。我可以看到工作室的问题,我们需要批判,有一些力量促成了这些相似之处,一个是市场,以及建筑设计和建造的速度,另一个是媒体。中国和世界各地都有许多这种追捧的压力。这些因素分散了建筑师的关注点。

VB: Could you talk about the current state of architecture in China? On the one hand, there is so much energy and so many young practitioners doing beautiful work, which can immediately be identified as Chinese with a good balance of looking back and bringing into their work local culture, history, and traditional materials. And on the other hand, they are looking forward and incorporate advanced technology. This was so clearly demonstrated at the Venice Biennale this year at the Chinese Pavilion, as it put on display so many of these, mainly small-scale projects in the countryside. And yet, I wonder if there is a lack of variety in this approach? So many projects seem somewhat formulaic, almost like the production of a single practice. What do you think?
YHC: I would agree with your observation. Yes, there is a kind of renaissance of creativity here in a big way. There are a lot of very good buildings all over. However, if I could refer to my own approach, I am a risk taker. More so than a lot of my colleagues here. You are right, we started to do a good work collectively. But, in a way, good work is not enough. These days, architects know how to do a good building. But it is also important to work in areas that are less explored in our discipline. It is important to work outside of one’s own comfort zone. Maybe you fail. Maybe you are not going to produce something pretty. But it is necessary to challenge ourselves. I can see issues with offices when it is just about production. We need to be critical. There are forces that contribute to these similarities. One is market and the speed with which buildings are being designed and built. The other one is the media. There is a lot of congratulatory press both in China and around the world. That distracts architects from being critical.

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Maison de la Chine Model

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Maison de la Chine Mode


VB:你曾经说过,“我不太擅长夸张的造型。因为那不是我,但我可以做不同的建筑,并仍然保持探索的感觉。”

张永和:当我还是伯克利的学生时,有一位瑞典教授Lars Lerup,我一直很欣赏他关于住宅和叙事的作品。有一天,我看着他的设计,意识到他不是一个好的造型师。我当时年幼无知,所以对他说,“你研究这些概念的原因是因为你不知道如何创造形式。”他回答说:“当然!”他对我非常真诚,对我来说也是如此。所以我并不是一个很好的造型者。然而,我的想法相当正式。我深受艺术家的影响,尤其是马塞尔·杜尚(Marcel Duchamp)这样的概念主义者和卡西米尔·马列维奇(Kazimir Malevich)这样的现代主义者。我一直对绘画很感兴趣,现在我正在研究如何将抽象绘画引入建筑。意思是,我想探索像笔触和绘画纹理这样的质地,我用这些想法来夸大或压缩空间。我很开心自己没能成为一名艺术家,但我成为了一名艺术建筑师。

VB: You once said, “I’m not very good at making exaggerated forms. that’s not me, but I can do different architecture and still have a sense of discovery.”
YHC: When I was a student at Berkeley I had a Swedish professor, Lars Lerup. I always admired his work on habitation and narrative. One day, I was looking at his designs and realized that he was not a good form-giver. I was young and silly, so I said to him, “The reason you work with these conceptual ideas is because you don’t know how to create forms.” And he replied, “Of course!” He was very generous with me and this is also true in my case. So I am not a good form-giver. However, my ideas are rather formal ideas. I am very much influenced by artists, especially by such conceptualists as Marcel Duchamp and such Modernists as Kazimir Malevich. I have been interested in painting and now I am working on ideas of bringing abstract painting into architecture. Meaning, I want to explore such qualities as a brush stroke and paint texture. I am using these ideas to exaggerate or compress spaces. I like to think that I failed to be an artist but I became an artistic architect.

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© CAO Yang

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© CAO Yang


VB:你有很多想法,但这与你的另一句名言相矛盾,那就是“在大概20年后,我可能会安定下来,而不是寻找一些关于建筑的敏锐想法。”

张永和:嗯,这是关于我回归实践以及收集自己的一些旧想法。

VB: You have so many ideas, but it contradicts another one of your quotes, “After almost 20 years, I may just settle rather than find some more acute ideas about architecture.”
YHC: Well, this is about bringing myself back into my practice and gathering my old ideas.

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© CAO Yang

VB: 你会说建筑是艺术吗?

张永和:我个人的主观回答是肯定的。但客观地说,当然不是。我们住在大楼里。那么,它们怎么可能只是艺术呢?空间必须可居住。所以就有两个相互矛盾的答案…对我来说是。有时候,建筑可以上升到艺术的层次。但建筑不仅仅是艺术,它还是一种发展趋势。

VB: Would you say architecture is art?
YHC: My personal, subjective answer is yes. But objectively speaking, of course, not. We live in buildings. So how can they be just art? Spaces have to be livable. So there are two contradictory answers… For me, it is. I try. Sometimes, there is a chance for architecture to rise to that level. But more than art, architecture is a discovery.

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© YAN Luzhong

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© YAN Luzhong


VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY是纽约非营利组织策展项目的创始人。他曾在纽约库珀联盟(Cooper Union)接受建筑师培训,写过九本书,包括《New York: Architectural Guide》(DOM, 2019)、《Conversations with Architects in the Age of Celebrity》(DOM, 2015)、《Harry Seidler: LIFEWORK 》(Rizzoli,2014)和《Soviet Modernism: 1955-1985》(TATLIN, 2010)等。他的众多展览包括:哈里·塞德勒(Harry Seidler)的世界巡展(自2012年起)、埃米里奥·安柏兹(Emilio Ambasz)的世界巡展(2017-18年)、Sergei Tchoban的世界巡展(自2016年起)、哥伦比亚:转型(美国巡展,2013-15年),以及第十一届威尼斯建筑双年展俄罗斯馆的国际象棋比赛(2008年)。Belogolovsky是柏林建筑杂志SPEECH的美国记者。2018年,他成为北京清华大学的访问学者,在30多个国家的大学和博物馆做过演讲。

Belogolovsky的专栏“思想之城”,向ArchDaily的读者介绍了他与最具创新精神的国际建筑师的最新对话。自2002年以来,已经采访了300多名建筑师。这些近距离的讨论,是这位策展人即将举办的同名展览的一部分,另外还包含录音,以及发人深思的引述。

VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY is the founder of the New York-based non-profit Curatorial Project. Trained as an architect at Cooper Union in New York, he has written nine books, including New York: Architectural Guide (DOM, 2019), Conversations with Architects in the Age of Celebrity (DOM, 2015), Harry Seidler: LIFEWORK (Rizzoli, 2014), and Soviet Modernism: 1955-1985 (TATLIN, 2010). Among his numerous exhibitions: world tours of the work of Harry Seidler (since 2012), Emilio Ambasz (2017-18), Sergei Tchoban (since 2016), Colombia: Transformed (American Tour, 2013-15), and Chess Game for Russian Pavilion at the 11th Venice Architecture Biennale (2008). Belogolovsky is the American correspondent for Berlin-based architectural journal SPEECH. In 2018, he was a visiting scholar at Tsinghua University in Beijing. He has lectured at universities and museums in more than 30 countries.
Belogolovsky’s column, City of Ideas, introduces ArchDaily’s readers to his latest conversations with the most innovative international architects. Since 2002, he interviewed over 300 architects. These intimate conversations are featured in the curator’s ongoing site-specific installations made up of voice recordings and thought-provoking quotes.

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© YAN Luzhong

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© TIAN Fangfang

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© TIAN Fangfang

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二分宅图解/Split House Diagrams

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吴大羽美术馆场地/Wu Dayu Art Gallery site plan


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