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“建筑是场所和人、是历史的媒介”第1张图片

竹林剧场/Bamboo Theatre. Image © Wang Ziling

徐甜甜:建筑应该联系过去与未来
“Architecture Should be Able to Connect the Past and the Future”: In Conversation with Xu Tiantian

由专筑网李韧,吴静雅编译

在2016年5月底,Alexandro Arravena的“Reporting from the Front”双年展将于次日拉开序幕,我刚刚落地威尼斯机场。Vaporetto水上巴士在那个时间已经不运营了,因此我叫了一辆水上的士,这样看来,进城可能需要花费一大笔开销,后来,我看到了一个孤独的身影,“你要去威尼斯吗?我们可以拼车吗?”一位年轻的中国女士立刻同意了。船一开动,我就碰运气的问道:“你是建筑师吗?”在接下来的一个小时,我们谈论了共同的朋友与作品。两年前,我回到威尼斯双年展,在中国馆的开幕仪式上,我正式地认识了徐甜甜—“中国前途最为光明的女建筑师。”我们面面相觑,共同说道:“拼车女孩/男孩!”后来我们交换了联系方式,在我下次去北京时,我们在她的DnA建筑设计工作室进行了交谈。以下便是这次交谈的摘录。

徐甜甜的工作室自开办以来,在中国凭借着许多文化与教育项目,获得了良好的声誉。她的项目致力于乡村地区建设相关的公共项目,尤其是诸如浙江省松阳县松阴溪湿地的小村落。在上海以南的这片风景如画的地区,这位建筑师已经完成了超过20个项目。她认为这些有趣的建筑是“建筑针灸”,我们一起聊了它们的意义与美学,但是徐甜甜坚持认为,这并非美学,而是对社会的重要作用。

It is the end of May 2016, Alexandro Arravena’s “Reporting from the Front” Biennale is about to kick off the next day and I just landed at Venice airport. Vaporetto waterbuses are no longer running at this late hour, so I am heading for a water taxi, thinking that it will cost me a bundle to get to the city. But maybe not! I see a lonely figure, “Are you going to Venice? Would you like to share a taxi?” A young Chinese woman agrees without hesitation. As soon as the boat leaves I keep pressing my luck, “Are you an architect, by any chance?” Yes! The next hour flew unnoticed, as we discussed our discipline and common friends. Two years passed, and I am back to Venice Biennale. At the opening of the Chinese Pavilion, I am hopping from conversation to conversation until I am introduced to Xu Tiantian, “China’s most promising female architect.” We looked at each other and said in unison, “The taxi girl/guy!” We finally exchanged contacts and on my next trip to Beijing we met at Xu’s DnA Design and Architecture studio. What follows, after a brief introduction, is an excerpt from that conversation.
Since opening her experimental practice Xu has achieved a strong reputation in China with numerous cultural and educational projects. She is committed to building relevant public projects in rural areas, particularly in small villages in Songyin river valley of Songyang County in Zhejiang province. In this picturesque region, south of Shanghai the architect has completed over 20 projects to date. She calls these intriguing structures “architectural acupuncture.” We discussed their significance and beauty, although Xu insisted that it is not their beauty but a capacity to make a social impact that’s important.

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Projects Map

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竹林剧场/Bamboo Theatre. Image © Han Dan


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Vladimir Belogolovsky(下文称为VB):我参观了你们在松阳的一些项目,我特别喜欢兴村红糖工坊。

Xu Tiantian(下文称为XT):因为工人们穿着橘色长袍,在浓厚的白色蒸汽中,看起来很让人喜欢。

Vladimir Belogolovsky: I have visited a number of your projects built in the last few years in Songyang County. I particularly enjoyed my time at the Brown Sugar Factory in Xing Village.
Xu Tiantian: Because of the workers’ choreography in their orange robes against thick, white steam. Everybody likes that.

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红糖工坊/Brown Sugar Factory. Image © Han Dan

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红糖工坊/Brown Sugar Factory. Image © Wang Ziling

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红糖工坊/Brown Sugar Factory. Image © Wang Ziling


VB:那也不是,我喜欢它是因为你的建筑作品中的美学与智慧。其中有着创造性细节和建筑的主导地位。它很现代也很普通。但是,建筑对场地的每个细节都得以表达,它是地区文化组织的一部分。针对这样规模的建筑,建筑师有许多内容需要完成。你的每个项目都具有远见,但是却没有太多重复的部分。它们都很具体,也很不相同,我甚至找不到重复的细节。

XT:这与整个故事有关。松阳县有400多座村庄,这些建筑就如同当地村落的“针灸策略”,它们带来了公共项目,也展示了村落的文化和遗产。因此,那么这就是个具体的情况,需要分析村落,分析症状,然后通过功能与地点进行建筑规划与设计。这会影响到建筑的成果,但是更多是关乎场所与人,而不只是单纯的建筑风格,更重要的是,项目背后的逻辑总是一致的。建筑针灸就是系统的可持续策略。这个概念不只是为了迎合大众,而且也是当地经济发展的推动力,目的是恢复村落的特征。我们在做的是基础设施、工业设施、社会结构、文化设施等等。

VB: Not really. I enjoyed it because of two things – the beauty and intelligence of your architecture. Because of the inventive use of details and the building’s strong position. It is unquestionably modern and universal. At the same time, the building responds to every minute detail on the site and it can be unmistakably identified as an integral part of its region and culture. There is a lot going on there for such a modestly scaled project. And each one of your projects has a strong vision on its own, but there is not much in common between them. They are very specific to their places, even materiality is very different. I didn’t find any repetition in thinking or even detailing.
XT: I think this has to do with the overall story. There are over 400 villages in Songyang County. Architecture there is used as the acupuncture strategy targeting local rural symptoms. These buildings bring public programs and they reveal the culture and heritage of each village. So, it’s really case-by-case situation – to analyze the village, to diagnose the symptoms, and to find the right architectural intervention by setting up the program and location. This will impact the design of the buildings to be more about the place and people rather than a signature architectural style. And it’s more about the logic behind each project that is always consistent. The architectural acupuncture is to look for a systematic, sustainable strategy. The idea is not just to cater to tourists, which is, of course, a major impulse for local economic development, but to restore these villages’ identities. We are talking about infrastructure, industry, social structure, cultural facilities, and so on.

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红糖工坊/Brown Sugar Factory. Image © Wang Ziling

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红糖工坊/Brown Sugar Factory. Image © Wang Ziling


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VB:那从最初开始,是什么让你接触建筑呢?

XT:我被清华大学录取了,当时只有16岁,我就选择了建筑专业,因为这在学科之中排第一。这就是一种直觉。学科列表很长,我只是觉得第一眼看到建筑一定很有趣。

VB:那你曾经对它有任何了解吗?

XT:这个真没有,家里也没有建筑师,完全靠自己做决定,也没有征求父母的意见。后来我觉得,这个决定可能来源于小时候居住的房子,那座建筑位于福建东南沿海,是一座古老的木屋,有着或封闭或开放的庭院,还有着各种细腻的细部细节和美丽的空间。这座住宅可以居住超过100个人。

VB:从清华毕业之后,你去哈佛学习,然后在波士顿工作了几年,后来在荷兰鹿特丹OMA建筑事务所工作。

XT:我在波士顿工作了3年,但是在荷兰鹿特丹OMA事务所只工作不到一年。我去这里主要是因为北京的央视大楼。我休息了一段时间去了深圳,非典时期之后,因为项目繁多,人们精力充沛,不分昼夜的外出,商店、餐厅始终在营业。后来我决定回国,因为不喜欢在OMA的工作时长。

VB: Let’s start from the beginning. What first brought you to architecture?
XT: I was preselected to enter Tsinghua University in Beijing. For a 16-year-old, I just picked Architecture, which was at the top of the list of all the departments. Well, I suppose, I went by my intuition. As you can imagine, the list was pretty long, but the architecture was the most interesting possibility to me at first glance.

VB: Did you know anything about it?
XT: No, I didn’t. And there were no architects in my family. I made this decision entirely on my own, without consulting my parents. But you know, later I realized that my decision may have something to do with the house in which I grew up, in Fujian Province on the southeast coast of China. It’s a very old wooden house with a sequence of endless, open and closed courtyards, refined details, and very beautiful spaces. This house once accommodated over 100 people.

VB: After Tsinghua, you went on to GSD at Harvard. Then worked in Boston for several years and later for OMA in Rotterdam.
XT: I worked in Boston for 3 years and then in OMA Rotterdam for less than a year. I went there mainly because of their CCTV project in Beijing. But then I went on a short break to visit Shenzhen and was totally overwhelmed. It was post SARS and there was so much energy – people going out, stores and restaurants open around the clock. It was then that I decided to come back to China, especially since we had to work very long hours at OMA. I hated that. [Laughs.]

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平田农耕馆/Pingtian Village Centre. Image © Han Dan

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平田农耕馆/Pingtian Village Centre. Image © Wang Ziling

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平田农耕馆/Pingtian Village Centre. Image © Zhou Ruogu

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平田农耕馆/Pingtian Village Centre. Image © Han Dan

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平田农耕馆/Pingtian Village Centre. Image © Wang Ziling

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平田农耕馆/Pingtian Village Centre. Image © Zhou Ruogu


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VB:嗯,你一直长时间地工作,后来成立了自己的事务所,是吗?

XT:我们这里的工作时间不长,而且很合理。我在2004年开始实习,那时我和艾未未合作了浙江金华建筑公园项目。后来,在公园的公厕项目中我又和王兴伟合作。宋庄艺术中心是我们工作室第一座建成项目。

VB: Well, you thought you were working long hours until you started your own practice, right?
XT: But we don’t work long hours here! Our hours are very reasonable. I started my practice in 2004, after working with Ai Weiwei on Jinhua Architecture Park in Zhejiang Province. I collaborated with artist Wang Xingwei to design a group of public toilets in the park. And Songzhuang Art Center was my studio’s first building.

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王景纪念堂/Wang Jing Memorial Hall. Image © Wang Ziling

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王景纪念堂/Wang Jing Memorial Hall. Image © Wang Ziling


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VB:和你合作最多的都是艺术家?

XT:建筑能够解决实际问题,但是大多数项目都由客户委托。艺术家们,尤其是概念艺术家们有着不同的思考方式,他们能够点出要点,并且用自己的方式来解决。这就是可以适应建筑思维与工作方式的策略。想法不仅仅为了提供答案,还需要提出问题。

VB: What would you say you learned most from your collaborations with artists?
XT: Architecture can provide practical solutions to a real problem. But most of the times projects are commissioned by clients. And artists, particularly conceptual ones are working in a very different way – they identify important issues and address them with their work. This is what could be adapted into architectural thinking and working. The idea is not just to provide answers but raise the questions.

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茶园竹亭/Bamboo Pavilion. Image © Han Dan

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茶园竹亭/Bamboo Pavilion. Image © Wang Ziling

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茶园竹亭/Bamboo Pavilion. Image © Zhou Ruogu

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黄圩驿站/Pine Pavilion. Image © Wang Ziling

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黄圩驿站/Pine Pavilion. Image © Wang Ziling

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黄圩驿站/Pine Pavilion. Image © Wang Ziling

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黄圩驿站/Pine Pavilion. Image © Wang Ziling


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VB:那让我们回到你在松阳的项目。我记得,那是2012年,当时人们不断地谈论城市的发展与城市化进程,这在中国尤为明显,当时雷姆 · 库哈斯提出,“一半的人生活在城市,一半的人生活在乡村”。那么你是什么时候开始关注这个问题呢?

XT:我的工作转移到农村是巧合。几年前,松阳县联系我完成一个酒店项目,而政府希望我定期出任村落发展顾问。因此,我们花了一年的时间来完成这些项目,几乎都是公益性质。举例来说,平田农耕馆原来是废弃的村落建筑群,本来应该被拆除了,但是我们认为这是传统村落的重要建筑聚落,并提议免费进行设计,由县政府进行施工投资。这也成为了成功的乡村项目,并且得到了社区与政府的支持,针对不同的问题,我们提出了建筑针灸的概念,也得到了认可与合作。

VB: Let’s go back to your projects in Songyang County. I remember, it was back in 2012, when everyone was still talking about ever-growing cities and increasing the pace of urbanization, especially in China, when Rem Koolhaas pointed the other way by saying, “Half of mankind lives in the city, but the other half doesn’t.” When did you start paying attention to the countryside here in China?
XT: It was coincident that my work shifted to the countryside. I was first contacted by Songyang County a few years ago for a hotel project and then we were periodically asked by the county to serve as advisors on their village development issues. So, we worked for one year to take on these projects, pro bono. For example, the Pingtian village center was a cluster of abandoned small village houses that most people preferred to be demolished. But we considered them as a crucial building fabric of this traditional village and proposed to offer the design for free so that county government would sponsor its construction cost. It became a successful project for the village community and started a pattern of working together with local communities and county government in initiating programs to target different issues. Eventually, we came up with the architectural acupuncture concept, which was accepted by the county and led to a systematic collaboration.

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石门廊桥/Shimen Bridge. Image © Wang Ziling

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石门廊桥/Shimen Bridge. Image © Wang Ziling

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石门廊桥/Shimen Bridge. Image © Wang Ziling

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石门廊桥/Shimen Bridge. Image © Wang Ziling


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松阳故事对我们来说是个独特的项目。每个小措施都有着适当的预算,应用了当地的材料和技术来促进社区感。这些项目也会构成邻里村落之间的互动。针灸是为了在不同的地方释放被困的能量,让村落成为特定的有机体。

VB:每座村落都有自己的特征与文化价值。

XT:是的,这不像城市。许多城市看起来太过相似,它们没有自己的特征。但是村落不同,每座村落都有自己的历史与特点,建筑针灸就是通过恢复每座村落的特征而让其焕发活力,同时这也能反映建筑的特征。

The Songyang Story is one singular project for us. And each of these small interventions is done with modest budget and local materials and techniques to engage and motivate the local communities. These individual projects will also create interactions between the neighboring villages. I like to say that acupuncture is performed to release the trapped energy in various places to remedy the whole organism of a particular village.

VB: And each of these villages has its own character and distinctive culture.

XT: Yes, unlike cities. So many of our cities have become alike, or homogeneous and they are losing their identities. But each village has its own history and focus – the architectural acupuncture is to re-activate it by restoring each village’s identity, which will also reflect on the architectural identity.  

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石仓契约博物馆/Hakka Indenture Museum. Image © Han Dan

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石仓契约博物馆/Hakka Indenture Museum. Image © Han Dan

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石仓契约博物馆/Hakka Indenture Museum. Image © Wang Ziling

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石仓契约博物馆/Hakka Indenture Museum. Image © Wang Ziling

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石仓契约博物馆/Hakka Indenture Museum. Image © Wang Ziling

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石仓契约博物馆/Hakka Indenture Museum. Image © Wang Ziling


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VB:这些项目引发了很大的反响,人们会最终回归乡村是吗?

XT:这个地区发生了很多改变。年轻人回到家乡,开始新生活,其中包括当地产品的电子商业,也有旅游项目。3年前,我们刚开始在平田工作,当时村落只有20来个人,而且几乎都是老人。而现在,居民总数已经超过了100人。在石仓村的客家契约博物馆还吸引了一位来自上海的投资者,这位投资者在旁边的一所空房子里发展业务。现在,当地的村民创办了不同的企业,促进经济增长,人们都会自己的家乡感到自豪,为发展前景感到乐观。

VB:你总结一下你的建筑项目的内涵?

XT:对我来说,建筑不只是一件手工艺品,它更是关乎场所和人,它还是对于当地历史的媒介,是解决问题的方法。建筑应该联系过去与未来。

VB: I understand that this project attracted a lot of attention in the media because the results already are very tangible. People are coming back to these villages, right?
XT: There have been many changes in this region. Young people are moving back to their home villages, and starting new businesses – from e-commerce on local products to tourism programs. When we first started in Pingtian Village three years ago there were only 20 people left and mostly elders. Now the total number of inhabitants has increased to over 100. In Shicang Village, the Hakka Indenture Museum has attracted an investor from Shanghai to open businesses at what used to be vacant houses next door. Now local villagers are motivated to initiate different enterprises that have resulted in a significant increase in economic revenues. People are now proud of their heritage and are optimistic about their future.

VB: How would you summarize what your architecture is about?
XT: For me, architecture is not just about crafting an object. It’s about a place and its people. It is a mediam to respect local history and to address specific issues. Architecture should be able to connect the past and the future.

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大木山茶室/Tea House. Image © Han Dan

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大木山茶室/Tea House. Image © Wang Ziling

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大木山茶室/Tea House. © Chen Hao

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大木山茶室/Tea House. © Chen Hao


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VB:那用一个词来描述你的建筑?

XT:我没想过,开放?这会不会太简单了。

VB:嗯,开放是一个好词汇。

XT:不是,我的意思是把结论完全公开,或者说不是结论,因为我也在探索与学习。我很想继续完成松阳故事,我们可以探索建筑的潜力,并不断向前。

VB:你是否担心你的作品太具中国特色?

XT:就是中国特色,那又怎么样?中国这么大,它有很多特色。我认为要去概括就太肤浅了。

VB: And how would you describe your architecture in single words?
XT: I never thought about it… It would be too easy, no? No, I would leave it open.

VB: Open is a good word.
XT: No, I mean I would leave these conclusions completely open. No conclusions. I am still exploring and learning. I really like to continue the Songyang Story. We can explore the capacity of architecture and expand on that.

VB: Do you worry about Chinese identity in your work?
XT: What is Chinese identity, anyway? China is too big to even have a particular identity. I think it would be too shallow to generalize it.

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王景纪念堂/Wang Jing Memorial Hall. Image © Han Dan

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王景纪念堂/Wang Jing Memorial Hall. Image © Wang Ziling


“建筑是场所和人、是历史的媒介”第49张图片


VB:从一个项目到另一个项目会有特定的过程吗?你会注重个人的想法吗?在不同的村落项目之间有什么联系吗?

XT:在进行村落项目时,重要的肯定是结合乡村的历史和实际的需求,将建筑技术与材质与当前给定的背景与预算相适应。我们总是尊重没有建筑师的建筑。每个项目都与众不同。例如红糖工坊关于表达生活方式、现代轻质钢结构、常见乡村轻质工业建筑形式等等,这是村落的社交空间。而石仓契约博物馆就是个安静的场所,由来源于附近的古石材建造而成,呼应了当地的历史,因为这是关于客家的文化与内涵。建筑在诉说故事,每个项目都有自己的场地,从而与乡村环境相融合,这不能互换。逻辑的连贯、项目背后的思考,这些信息比个人的表达更加重要。实际上,对于任何特定的风格我们都持有怀疑态度。但是在项目中留下一些痕迹不可避免,我也确定项目都会有些共性。

VB: Would you say there is a particular evolution in your work from project to project? Are you concerned with developing your own personal voice? Do you see a connection between your projects in different villages?
XT: When we work in villages, it is more important to integrate the program with the village history and the current needs, then to adapt the building techniques or material fitting with a given context and on budget. And we always respect architecture without architects. Every project is different. For example, the Brown Sugar Factory is about the celebration of life and production, a modern light steel structure, a common rural light industrial building form. It is used as a social space for the village and for performances. Whereas, the Indenture Museum in Hakka is a quiet place constructed out of the excavated nearby ancient stone to contemplate local history. It’s about the weight and the ancient history of Hakka. Architecture is also about storytelling. Each project has its own plot to merge with its village context. I don’t think you could swap them around. The consistency of the logic, the intellectual thinking behind each project, the message, is more important than individual expression. In fact, we have been very cautious and skeptical about developing any particular style. But I think it’s inevitable to leave certain traces in our projects. Certain commonalities come through, I am sure of it.

“建筑是场所和人、是历史的媒介”第50张图片

© Wang Ziling
        
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