Foster + Partners' London office, Riverside. Image © Marc Goodwin

为什么工资的性别差异问题会让人难以接受？
Why Does The Gender Pay Gap Issue Make People Uncomfortable?

由专筑网李韧，王帅编译

上个星期，ArchDaily编辑部了解到福斯特建筑事务所员工的工资有着性别差异，大家认为这个事件不足为奇，因为在各个行业，工资的性别差异都是个普遍存在的规则，那么在建筑界这样一个顶级的事务所也存在着这种现象，我们想以此来与大家分享。可出乎我们意料的是，很多读者认为这种现象很不合理，我们是否能在工作场合谈论这些问题呢？为什么工资的性别差异会让人难以接受？

我们的编辑们就此问题沟通了彼此的工作经历，也许从中我们能够发现未来的发展迹象。

Joanna Wong：首先要明确的是，福斯特建筑事务所的工资性别差异问题的关键在于公司的管理层中女性较少，而不是在同等工作强度下，女性得到的报酬更少。

Pola Mora：我相信，关于女性工作待遇的平等问题已经有过很多次讨论，但这种状况以前从未发生过，这些新要求让人难以接受，这就好像“一直都是这样啊，为什么要改变”的惯性思维模式。

Eduardo Souza：是的，人们不愿意接受事物的改变，因此当面对性别问题时，这是人们下意识做出的反应。

Joanna Wong：从许多男性读者那里我们也收到过类似的信息，因为相比起女性员工，他们也许在工作中更有优势，而且他们没有经历过工资的性别差异问题，所以他们没办法理解这种现象所带来的影响。

Eduardo Souza：刚才Joanna的话让我想到有这么个问题，为什么女性不能像男性那样努力地提升自己呢？是因为她们在自己的生活中也有很多事要处理吗？

Joanna Wong：女性肯定要顾及到自己的家庭。

Eduardo Souza：可问题是，我们不能确定地说女性是否注重家庭而过多工作，如果说她们想要两头兼顾，那没办法，只能同时承担这些压力。

Pola Mora：嗯，是的，问题的关键所在就是女性有着家庭责任。

Eduardo Souza：我从不觉得性别对工作有什么影响，也许因为我是个男生，但是我也确实听说过有的女性员工在产假之后就被解雇了。

Joanna Wong：男性其实也有家庭的责任，父亲是一个很骄傲的身份，但是就女性来说，到了某个阶段，就要生小孩，那么在这几个月甚至一年的时间里可能都没办法完全投入工作，那么在此期间，她们为了孩子只能放弃工作。

Pola Mora：我们暂且先不谈论生育问题，无论是否生过小孩，女性的薪酬就存在着不公平的现象，有的人会说：“你的薪酬不能实际反映出你的才干，那只是你沟通能力的问题。”可是我认为，事实并非如此，因为我觉得工作机制必须透明，尤其是针对工资这样敏感的话题。

Joanna Wong：（笑）其实我也这么认为的，当人们逐步进入公司高层，愈发重要的是他们的沟通技巧。

Pola Mora：所以女性应该把自己装扮得像一个男性那样去沟通才能获取公平么？这也是女性一步一步走到高层才能逐渐地寻求到一点公平。

Joanna Wong：如果我们深入地研究工资性别差异，也许我们会发现问题存在于建筑这个行业之中，超长工作时间、长期睡眠不足、教育限制，甚至有时比起其他的行业，建筑行业的工资也不算高，因此综合考虑之后，女性往往会选择更有利于未来的选项。

Pola Mora：那么还有一件事，这与报酬无关，这事关工作中男性对女性的反应，如果一对男女搭档一起工作，当男同事不能去施工现场时，也许工地的工人们会问那位女性：“你好，请问建筑师来了吗？”而且我们都发现，在会议场合，女性员工往往还要负责端咖啡。

Eduardo Souza：对的，我完全同意，女驻场建筑师应该争夺属于自己的权益与尊重。

Pola Mora：然后此类事情就会成为这位女建筑师日后申请增加工资的一大障碍。

Joanna Wong：是的，因此各项机制应当透明。

Pola Mora：我相信公众对于这个问题的关注能够稍稍引起人们的重视。如果普利兹克建筑奖获得者从来没有女性建筑师，或者是从没有女教授进行过公开演讲，亦或是女性从来无法承担公司的首席执行官，这样的话那些还在学校的女生们对未来的生活也许会完全失去希望。因此这是一个问题，如果她们看不到希望，那她们有什么动力去为自己争取公平权益呢？

Eduardo Souza：所以说，我们应该提升各项机制的透明度。

Pola Mora：所以那篇关于福斯特建筑事务所的各项报告能够让女性员工了解到自己到底赚了多少钱是吗？

Eduardo Souza：是的，这同样有利于男性员工。我相信这是引起人们关注的第一步。

Joanna Wong：在这个问题中，媒体的作用非常重要。除此之外，教育界人士也应当尽力传播此类正面信息。应该宣扬以往女性先驱者的例子，例如Sophia Hayden Bennett早在1893年的哥伦比亚博览会就举办的女性建筑展览，现代21世纪SANAA建筑事务所的Zaha Hadid或Sejima这些宣传非常重要，我们需要拓宽思路。

Eduardo Souza：对的，在巴西，人们对于Lina Bo Bardi作品的关注度也在增加，就像Sophia Hayden Bennett，在那个时代她并没有获得应有的尊重与认可。

Pola Mora：很幸运的是在ArchDaily有这么多优秀的女性员工，我很喜欢在这里工作，我们是一个媒体机构，我们有责任对女性公平权益理念进行媒体宣传，把这个问题摆在公众面前讨论。今年的威尼斯双年展这么个举世瞩目的建筑盛事，它的发起人就是两位女性，她们是来自Grafton Architects的Yvonne Farrell 和Shelley McNamara，而且许多国家的展览策划人都是女性员工，这给我们带来了很多积极的信息，希望这个问题能够早日解决。

Joanna Wong：我们期待着改变。

Pola Mora：我们的努力终于有了回应！


编辑信息

Pola Mora是ArchDaily西班牙分部的负责人，她取得了智利大学文化管理硕士学位。去年，她负责智利建筑双年展“Diálogos Impostergables”的策展事宜。

Joanna Wong是ArchDaily中国分部的编辑，她负责将中国的优秀项目传播给世界各地的读者。她于2017年加入ArchDaily，在此之前，她获得了多伦多大学建筑设计和艺术历史的学士学位。

Eduardo Souza (Dudu)是一位建筑设计师和城市规划者。他毕业于圣卡塔琳娜联邦大学（UFSC），并获得城市规划硕士学位。他于2012年加入ArchDaily巴西分部，目前主要负责建筑经典与建筑文章的编辑。

Last week, ArchDaily covered a story about the gender pay gap at Foster + Partners. We thought such a story was "unsurprising" given that the gender pay gap is something that is widely reported on, and present in almost every industry, and we wanted to share a case of it happening in an architectural firm many of us are familiar with. What we did not expect was that readers would think it is a non-issue, or that such reporting was sensational. Is it possible for us to talk about gender in the workplace without being up in arms? Why does the gender pay gap issue make people uncomfortable?
Some of our editors discussed how gender plays into their workplace experiences as well as some hopeful recent signs that we are on a path to change.
Joanna Wong: I think it’s important to first outline that the gender gap at Foster + Partners is a result of having less female representation in senior or managerial levels, rather than having women paid less for equivalent jobs that men do.
Pola Mora: I believe there are more and more discussions related to equality in women’s work conditions in a way that has not happened before. These new demands make people uncomfortable. It's like, "It has always been happening, so just let it stay that way."
Eduardo Souza: Right. People do not accept that things change, and so when someone confronts the gender issue, it's natural that people react in a sensitive way.
Joanna Wong: We've also been hearing a lot from male readers who perhaps have a more advantageous position in the working world over their female counterparts. If they have not experienced the same obstacles that women face in this profession, it's easier for them to say that the gender pay gap is nonexistent.
Eduardo Souza: And going back to what Joanna said, it is important to ask: Why do women not ascend professionally as much as men? Perhaps because they adopt other roles in their lives as well?
Joanna Wong: Domestic roles for sure.
Eduardo Souza: The thing is, I do not know if they put these roles above their career, or if it is a role left over for them, and they have no choice but to pick up these responsibilities.
Pola Mora: Well, that's a matter of discussion only if we put maternity in the equation.
Eduardo Souza: I've never felt gender affect me in the jobs I've had, maybe because I'm a man, but I've definitely heard stories of women being fired after returning from parental leave.
Joanna Wong: Men also have domestic roles, many are proud fathers. But women, at some point in their career, will be confronted with the choice of having a child or not. Bearing a child would mean being inevitably absent from work for months. During this time they would have to give up their time, wages, and opportunities.
Pola Mora: Stepping out of the child-bearing argument, women – mothers or not – simply do not have the same pay conditions. Some people say, "Your payment doesn’t reflect your talent, but your capacity for negotiation.” I think: "Things shouldn’t be like that!" That’s why I think transparency is essential when we want to talk about salaries across genders.
Joanna Wong: (laughs) Pola, I was going to say that too! When people move on to senior positions, their pay is more of a combined result of their past merits and negotiation skills.
Pola Mora: And that's when women have to put their "male suit" to go and negotiate "as an equal" with a man. That's why having women in higher positions could balance this inequality.
Joanna Wong: If we delve deeper into the gender pay gap issue, I think we can also see that it stems from problems within the profession of architects: the long hours, sleepless nights before competitions, years of education, and not-so-well-paid salary compared to other professions that also take years to advance. When considering their domestic roles, perhaps these women would opt for a more rewarding alternative.
Pola Mora: Here’s another thing. It is not related to payment, but to how men react to women at work. I know couples that work together, and when the male partner cannot go to surpervise construction, the workers ask the female partner "Lady, where is the architect?" And we all know situations in meetings where the only woman present is expected to serve coffee!
Eduardo Souza: Yes, I totally agree, women on construction sites need to fight way more than their male counterparts to be seen, heard, respected by the workers there.
Pola Mora: And then these things like the perception of co-workers can affect women later when they negotiate their salaries as well.
Joanna Wong: Yes. To do better, we’ll need more transparency.
Pola Mora: I believe all the public attention this issue has been getting can help to empower women architects at work. If female students cannot see enough women winning the Pritzker, giving lectures, running offices as CEOs, that’s a problem. How are they going to feel the drive to fight for an equal salary if they don’t see a space for them in the field?
Eduardo Souza: As it is, we definitely need to improve on representativeness and transparency.
Pola Mora: So hopefully transparency reports like this article about Foster + Partners can help women to know how much their counterparts are earning, right?
Eduardo Souza: Yes. And it helps men too. I believe that having awareness is a first step.
Joanna Wong: Having female architects represented in the media is fundamental to raising awareness. In addition to that, people in teaching positions should make sure that examples by female architects are included in the course material. It's important to have examples of female pioneers from the past, like the Woman's Building at the Columbian Exposition in 1893 by Sophia Hayden Bennett, and not just recent works by Zaha Hadid or Sejima of SANAA from the 21st century. They are important too, but we need a wider scope.
Eduardo Souza: Yes. In Brazil, the interest in the work of Lina Bo Bardi has been increasing as well, which is awesome. Like Sophia Hayden Bennett, she did not have the recognition she deserved in her time.
Pola Mora: Fortunately at ArchDaily we have a lot of super-qualified women in leadership positions. It’s a great place for me to work. And as a media organization, I think we have a huge responsibility to highlight these women. In the end, the media seems to be doing a lot of work putting these issues up for public debate. Come to think of it, this year’s Venice Biennale, the most relevant event for architects in the world, will be held by two women – Yvonne Farrell and Shelley McNamara of Grafton Architects, and a lot of countries have also chosen women to curate their pavilions! So hopefully we will find the space to continue the discussion.
Joanna Wong: We're starting to see the changes.
Pola Mora: Our efforts are finally seeing the light!

About the editors
Pola Mora is Head of Content at ArchDaily en Español since september 2013. She is an architect with a Master in Cultural Management from Universidad de Chile. Last year, she was one of the curators of Chile Biennale of Architecture “Diálogos Impostergables.”
Joanna Wong is an editor at ArchDaily China. She is in charge of bringing news and projects in China to a global audience. Prior to joining ArchDaily in 2017, she completed a BA degree in Architectural Design and Art History at the University of Toronto.
Eduardo Souza (Dudu) is an architect and urbanist. He graduated from the Federal University of Santa Catarina (UFSC) with a Master in Urban Planning from the History and Architecture Program at UFSC. Has been collaborating in ArchDaily Brasil since 2012, and is currently Editor of Architecture Classics and Articles.


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