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对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第1张图片

Serpentine Gallery Pavilion. Image Courtesy of Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects

“我总是在我设计的建筑中”:与伊东丰雄的对话
"I Am Always Inside the Architecture that I Design": In Conversation with Toyo Ito

由专筑网K&C,小R编译

只需一瞥东京建筑师伊东丰雄(1941-)的作品——特别是标志性的仙台媒体中心(1995-2001),蛇形画廊(伦敦,2002 年,与 塞西尔·巴尔蒙德(Cecil Balmond)合作),TOD 的表参道大楼(东京,2004 年),多摩美术大学图书馆(东京,2007 年)和台中国家大剧院(2009-2016 年)——创新的结构和空间、非等级组织便不言而喻。虽然这些建筑作品多变而不同,但却有一个主题贯穿始终——建筑师一直致力于打破内外之间的固定界限,并融合室内的各种功能空间划分。在探索这些建筑物时,仿佛有一种连续性,是一个系统而不是单独对象,建筑似乎永远没有末端;人们会感受到它们的排列组合,似乎会无休止地进行进化和扩展。

伊东,作为2013 年普利兹克奖获得者和 2010 年帝国帝国奖获得者,成为日本第一、二代现代主义建筑师与引领日本建筑界的新生代建筑师的联系纽带。他在东京大学学习时,曾与丹下健三(1913 – 2005)、菊竹清训(1928 – 2011)、矶崎新(1931-)和黑川纪章(1934 – 2007)有过密切互动,他在1965 年从东京大学毕业后为菊竹清训工作了四年,菊竹清训是新陈代谢运动的创始人,该运动将建筑和城市变化、成长和进化作看作有机体进行推演。伊东于 1971 年创立了自己的工作室,这里迅速成为许多才华横溢的年轻建筑师的训练场,其中就有妹岛和世和西泽立卫 (两人创立SANAA建筑事务所)、Astrid Klein和Mark Dytham(创始KDa 和 PechaKucha)、福岛克也(创立FT Architects建筑事务所),以及平田晃久。下文是我们在 Zoom 上对话的部分内容,为了使行文流畅,稍微进行了编辑和压缩。

Examining the work of Tokyo architect Toyo Ito (b. 1941) – particularly his now seminal Sendai Mediatheque (1995-2001), Serpentine Gallery (London, 2002, with Cecil Balmond), TOD's Omotesando Building (Tokyo, 2004), Tama Art University Library (Tokyo, 2007), and National Taichung Theater (2009-16) – will immediately become apparent these buildings’ structural innovations and spatial, non-hierarchical organizations. Although these structures all seem to be quite diverse, there is one unifying theme – the architect’s consistent commitment to erasing fixed boundaries between inside and outside and relaxing spatial divisions between various programs within. There is continuity in how these buildings are explored. They are conceived as systems rather than objects and they never really end; one could imagine their formations and patterns to continue to evolve and expand pretty much endlessly.
Ito, 2013 Pritzker Prize and 2010 Praemium Imperiale Laureate is a direct link between Japan’s first and second-generation modernists and the younger generations of now leading Japanese architects. He studied under and interacted closely with Kenzo Tange (1913 – 2005), Kiyonori Kikutake (1928 –2011), Arata Isozaki (b. 1931), and Kisho Kurokawa (1934 – 2007) at the University of Tokyo, which he graduated from in 1965 and then worked for four years for Kikutake, the founder of the Metabolism Movement, a speculative concept of buildings and cities changing, growing, and evolving, similar to living organisms. Ito’s own studio, which he founded in 1971, became a training ground for many talented young architects, including Kazuyo Sejima and Ryue Nishizawa (SANAA), Astrid Klein, and Mark Dytham (founders of KDa and PechaKucha), Katsuya Fukushima (FT Architects), and Akihisa Hirata. What follows is a portion from our conversation over Zoom, which was edited and condensed for clarity.

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第2张图片

Tod's Omotesando Building. Image © Nacasa & Partners

Vladimir Belogolovsky(下文简称VB):您在1965 年从东京大学建筑系毕业后为菊竹清训工作了几年,然后在 1971 年开设了自己的事务所。从那次经历中您学到的最多的是什么?

伊东丰雄(下文简称IT):我在大学的时候,丹下健三是我们的教授,我也经常和矶崎新、黑川纪章、菊竹清训交流。我从丹下、矶崎和黑川那里学到的是,建筑是非常理论化的。这是他们的看法。但是,新陈代谢运动的创始人菊竹就截然不同了。对他来说,建筑是一种情感体验。我还从他那里学到了如何用我的整个身体来设计建筑。意思就是,将建筑设计为一种有形的体验——考虑你在空间中的感受,接触材料、纹理和表面等物体的感受。这就是不同之处。

VB:我注意到在您离开菊竹的工作室和创立自己的工作室之间隔了好几年。那段时您是在另一个工作室工作吗?

TI:我在 1969 年离开菊竹的工作室,在 1971 年开始自己的工作室之前,我在为家人做一些项目,同时思考着我想做的到底是什么。我不想太快进入创立工作室的阶段。而且在1970 年,我去了趟欧洲和美国。我第一次出国是在 1967 年,去参观蒙特利尔世博会,当时我还留在菊竹的工作室。

Vladimir Belogolovsky: Following your graduation from the University of Tokyo's department of architecture in 1965, you worked for several years at the office of Kiyonori Kikutake, before opening your own practice in 1971. What did you learn most from that experience?
Toyo Ito: When I studied at the university Kenzo Tange had his professorship and I also constantly interacted with Arata Isozaki, Kisho Kurokawa, and Kiyonori Kikutake. What I learned from Tange, Isozaki, and Kurokawa was that architecture is very theoretical. That’s how they saw it. But Kikutake who was, of course, the founder of the Metabolism Movement, was different. To him, architecture was an emotional experience. What I also learned from him is how to design architecture with my entire body. In other words, to design architecture as a tangible experience – considering how you feel in the space, how you touch materials, textures, and surfaces, and so on. That was the difference.

VB: I noticed that between finishing your time at Kikutake’s office and starting your own practice there was a gap for a couple of years. Did you work at another studio then?
TI: After leaving the office of Kikutake in 1969, and before starting my own studio in 1971, I worked on projects for my family and was considering what exactly I wanted to do. I did not want to jump into my own practice too quickly. Also, in 1970, I traveled to Europe and America. And the first time I went abroad was in 1967, to visit the Montreal EXPO, while still working at Kikutake’s office.

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第3张图片

National Taichung Theater. Image Courtesy of Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects

VB:您说过,“我的作品总是拆除这堵将现代建筑与自然隔开的墙。”您能否谈谈您将多样性的空间引入现代主义建筑,并坚持几何网格和直角等抽象概念设计的风格是如何开始的、又对您产生了什么特殊的影响?

TI:在上世纪80 年代我从事大型公共项目之前,我做的项目大部分是一家三口的住宅设计。然而在那时,我就已经很清楚地认识到我想强调建筑与自然之间的这种微妙关系。例如,我自己的房子 Silver Hut 试图将住宅与天地连接起来。到了上世纪90 年代,我开始接手更大规模的项目,我就更加专注于尝试通过建筑及其体验方式将人与自然联系起来。我所接受的教育是遵循现代主义的所有主要原则,但是自从我开始实践,我便意识到现代主义实质上是与自然对立。这导致我开始质疑并慢慢推倒了现代主义建筑与自然之间的这堵所谓的墙。

VB: You said, “My work has always been about tearing down this wall that separates modern architecture from nature.” Could you talk about your interest in bringing spatial varieties to Modernist architecture’s insistence on conforming its designs to such abstractions as the geometric grid and the right angle? How did this interest start, and could you name any particular influences on you?  
TI: Until the 1980s, before I was given a chance to work on large public works, my projects were largely single-family residences. Yet, I was already very much aware of this delicate relationship between architecture and nature that I wanted to emphasize. For example, my own house, Silver Hut, was an attempt to connect the house to the land and the sky. And then in the 1990s, when I started working on a bigger scale, I focused even more on trying to connect people and nature through architecture and how it is experienced. I was trained to follow all the main principles of Modernism, but once I started practicing, I realized that Modernism is about asserting itself against nature. This led to questioning it and slowly turning down this so-called wall between Modernist architecture and nature.  

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第4张图片

'Minna no Mori' Gifu Media Cosmos. Image © Kai Nakamura

VB:这个问题是否是因某个特定的启示引发的,比如在了解某种主义或参观另一位建筑师的建筑时所激发的?您对现代主义的质疑从何而来呢?

TI:虽然我在80年代就开始有了朦胧的认知,但真正的启示,正如你所说的,是出自90年代中期我在设计仙台媒体中心工作时的顿悟。这个项目来源于 1995 年的竞赛,在 2000 年竣工并于 2001 年开放。正是在设计这座建筑的过程中,我重新思考了人与自然的关系的重要性,思考了建筑如何才能让人们的行为更自由、更舒适。我的心态发生了翻天覆地的变化。设计再也不是关于建筑和外观本身。

VB: Was this questioning sparked by a particular revelation such as discovering someone’s thoughts or visiting another architect’s building? Where did your doubts about Modernism come from?
TI: Although I started thinking about these ideas already in the 1980s, the real revelation, as you call it, came in the mid-1990s when I was working on Sendai Mediateque. The project started as a competition in 1995 and the building was completed in 2000 and opened in 2001. It was during the process of designing this building that I was rethinking the importance of the relationship between people and nature, and what can architecture do to make people behave more freely and more comfortably. My mindset flipped. It was no longer about the building and its look.

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第5张图片

Serpentine Gallery Pavilion. Image Courtesy of Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects

VB:您曾经将您的建筑描述为“包裹着人类的一件衣服”。您能详细解释一下这种比喻吗?

TI:当建筑师在设计建筑时,他们通常会关注形式、外观和整体形象。但是当我设计我的建筑时,我是从内部空间出发的。我总是在身处在我设计的建筑当中。所以,我说建筑就像一个包裹着人类的物体,也就是在说我首先考虑我的身体。其次,围着躯体放置家具,然后才是建筑物的表皮,就像一件件衣服。我会慢慢地向外叠加。

VB: You once described your buildings as "pieces of clothing that wrap around human beings." Could you elaborate on this thought?
TI: When architects design their buildings they often focus on the form, exterior, and overall image. But when I design my buildings I start from within. I am always inside the architecture that I design. So, by saying that architecture is like a piece of closing that wraps around human beings, I basically mean that I think about my body first. Then I surround it with furniture, then with the skin of the building, just like layers of closing. I slowly expand outwards.  

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第6张图片

Sendai Mediatheque. Image Courtesy of Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects

VB:在谈到您的建筑时,您和其他评论家经常使用诸如违反笛卡尔逻辑、非线性、内外模糊、界限模糊、两者之间和松散状态等词汇。还有其他词汇可以描述您的设计和您期望实现的建筑类型吗?

TI:我们刚刚谈到了人类与自然的联系的重要性。这是非常重要的。我还想说,人类是通过两种水联系在一起的——物理的和虚拟的。物理的水组成了人体的大部分,而虚拟的水则构建了信息。人们在城市中四处寻找“虚拟的水”。渐渐地,人们开始失去对“物理的水”的感受。也就是说,人逐渐与自然分离。当代建筑应该创造人们可以接触“物理的水”的地方,在那里他们可以自由地、积极地进行活动。

VB: Speaking about your architecture you and other critics often use such words as against the cartesian logic, non-linear, ambiguity between the inside and outside, blurred boundaries, the in-between, and loose condition. What other words would you use to describe your work and the kind of architecture you try to achieve?
TI: We just talked about the importance of our connection with nature. That’s very important. I also like to say that human beings are connected by two kinds of water – physical and virtual. Physical water is what makes up most of the human body, while virtual water is what shapes information. People move around cities seeking “virtual water”. Gradually this leads to losing their sense of “physical water.” In other words, people become detached from nature. Contemporary architecture should create places where people would come in contact with “physical water” where they would freely and actively enjoy being active.

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第7张图片

National Taichung Theater. Image © Kai Nakamura

VB:您的建筑在表达什么?您的作品有什么期望实现的目标吗?

TI:我想要延续和扩展现代主义。我的目标是创造与自然密切相关的现代建筑。 “功能”的概念似乎已成为20 世纪的过时术语了。我也没有“形式”的意向。我更感兴趣的是去创造接近自然界中真实存在的场所,并将它们整合到建筑中。我总是从大自然中的森林、树木和水源中汲取灵感。除此之外,风和云等自然现象也启发着我的设计。

VB: What is your architecture about? What is the main intention of your work?
TI: I aim at extending and expanding Modernism. My goal is to create Modern architecture that has a close relationship with nature. The concept of “function” seems to be the 20th-century term that is no longer relevant. I do not have an image of “form” either. I am more interested in creating places similar to the ones found in nature and integrating them within architecture. I always derive inspiration from forests, trees, and water in nature. In addition to them, natural phenomena such as wind and clouds also inspire my designs.

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第8张图片

Tama Art Universiry Library. Image © Ishiguro Photographic Institute

VB:自2000年以来在日本建成的建筑物中,您认为最重要的是哪一座?

TI:我选不出来,也不认为真的有建筑能值得这种认可。但我可以举出一位我认为需要更多关注的年轻建筑师,他是日本最优秀的年轻建筑师之一。那就是平田明久 [1971-]。虽然他还没有获得足够的机会来从事大尺度的项目。但他的作品很有创意,而且他的作品对建筑的局限性提出了质疑。

VB: What one building, built in Japan since 2000, would you name as the most important?
TI: I wouldn’t pick one building. I don’t think there is such a building that really deserves such recognition. But I can name one young architect who I think needs to be paid a lot of attention, as one of the best young architects in Japan. I am talking aboutAkihisa Hirata [b. 1971]. He hasn’t been given enough opportunities to work on large-scale projects yet. But his work is inventive, and it is about questioning the limits of architecture.

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第9张图片

Tod's Omotesando Building_interior. Image © Nacasa & Partners

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第10张图片

Silver Hut. Image Courtesy of Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第11张图片

Sendai Mediatheque. Image Courtesy of Toyo Ito & Associates, Architects

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第12张图片

'Minna no Mori' Gifu Media Cosmos. Image © Kai Nakamura

对话伊东丰雄:我身处我的设计中第13张图片

National Taichung Theater. Image © Kai Nakamura


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